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When I was a young lamblet, the Vietnam War was a regular feature on the evening news. I don't necessarily remember watching it, but I do remember it being on in the background... it was hard to miss, even for a kid who was distracted by other more important things such as toads, Liddle Kiddles, and was Frankenstein really buried under that big cement slab back in the woods... What I do remember noticing though was that this war seemed to be playing out in an area with no buildings. After seeing endless newscasts filled with jungle green, I came to the only conclusion I could... they must go somewhere with limited population in order to "have war"! Yes, that's it! Because if you're going to do something as silly as have a war, it would at least be best to have it in an area where there would be little collateral damage. No, it would be better to have some remote area designated as the fighting area, much like the corner of the rec room where my brothers were sent when they couldn't get along. You go to that area, free of items to be hurt by your flailing... you flail, and then you see the errors of your way and get back to life as you knew it. Yes, this made sense to my single-digit mind. It was a way for me to make sense of war.
And then I believe I shared this revelation with an adult... the next thing I remember, my father was showing me a photo or two of London after the Blitz. Once again, war made no sense. My mind tried to make sense out of what I was seeing, but there was no sense to be made. As Dylan Brody so succinctly puts it in his current post (go read it):
War cannot be waged decently. War cannot be waged or supported with clean hands or with a clean conscience.
War still makes no sense to me. What makes even less sense is that in 2012, it's still such a viable option.
I often wonder what my lamblets think of it, both of them older than I was when I first came to my "designated war area" conclusion... but I'm guessing it makes even less sense to them. Even though we now have a continuous news cycle, war and its ugly impact seems to be covered even less than some 40 years ago... the true impact so far removed from daily chatter... from anyone's chatter. Best to keep it quiet... best to keep shopping.
Update:
The comments made me remember this song/video...
we seem to also now have a continuous war cycle.
Kos and C&L both had a chart recently that chowed that Bill-O spent nearly four times as much time talking about the "War On Christmas" than he did on the two or three ACTUAL wars we have going.
Back in some old blog, I once asserted to Nick that war NEVER improved things; orbviously hoping he would take the bait and we could have a good argument. But even WW2, necessary as it was, didn't improve anything on its own; it stopped a couple of very bad national actors from doing worse things; it was the rebuilding of Europe and Japan, coupled with holding the war criminals culpable under LAW, that made some improvements, I would maintain.
Posted by: zombie rotten mcdonald | January 03, 2012 at 12:35 PM
I want only sunshine and unicorns for the lamblets.
Forever timez.
Posted by: Von | January 03, 2012 at 01:04 PM
IT IS CRAZY OVER HERE WHAT IS GOING ON SOMEONE HOLD ME
Posted by: Kathleen | January 03, 2012 at 02:19 PM
It was only *after* we went to war in Iraq that I *truly* realized that learning the lessons (the lessons *I* learned, I guess) of Vietnam was NOT the point.
I thought we had learned our lesson!
I learned from the Vietnam War that people don't want other people--foreign people--dropping bombs on them, telling them how to live their lives. They don't want to be killed to be saved. And they'll kill *you* to prove that.
I often wonder if another country started dropping bombs on Columbus and Cleveland, killing people I love.... how open would I be to their big picture message/intention? No matter how I look at it, it just makes sense to me that I would not be all that open to their ideas.
But, we did learn lessons from Vietnam. We learned:
- Drafts are bad. Gets too many people involved which means too many people will know faster how awful it is.
- Never focus on those killed in action. Hide their homecomings lest we start focusing too much on "body counts"
Posted by: blue girl | January 03, 2012 at 02:23 PM
I'll never forget putting my lamblets to bed the night the Iraq war (second one) was supposed to start... I remember thinking what it must be like to be a parent over there and how incredibly frustrating it must be to know someone was going to bomb the crap out of your country for your own good...
Yeah, if there were still a draft, I'm guessing the tone would be different. It's easier to ignore if there isn't one.
And easier to ignore war crimes if they're draped in righteousness.
Posted by: Jennifer | January 03, 2012 at 02:28 PM
And easier to ignore war crimes if they're draped in righteousness.
I think the reason war crimes get committed is because no one who commits them ever thinks they are committing a war crime.
Since waging war is becoming more like playing a videogame, I say we just make going to war a videogame. Best of seven on Battlefield 3, winner gets democracy/fishing rights/dibs on Canada.
Posted by: Brando | January 03, 2012 at 02:34 PM
Since waging war is becoming more like playing a videogame, I say we just make going to war a videogame. Best of seven on Battlefield 3, winner gets democracy/fishing rights/dibs on Canada.
Excellent idea!
I think the reason war crimes get committed is because no one who commits them ever thinks they are committing a war crime.
Which is amazing, considering most are pretty black and white.
Waterboarding is torture... Torture is a war crime...
Posted by: Jennifer | January 03, 2012 at 02:37 PM
A family member of ours (one who should know better) was OUTRAGED on Christmas Eve that the Iraqis are so unappreciative of our efforts.
If you are a grown up who has a brain and the ability to read and understand your environment and the world you have lived in forEVER, what on EARTH is going on in your brain that would allow you to make such a statement?
I always go back to the Kent State shootings. I had famly members who said those kids *deserved* it.
LIKE KATHLEEN I MUST TYPE IN ALL CAPS AND DECLARE THAT I DO NOT UNDERSTAND.
Posted by: blue girl | January 03, 2012 at 02:37 PM
I think Kathleen might be experiencing a little blog template-change trauma as well. :)
She's been gone for a while, and is now being deluged with work and BLOG CHANGES!
Posted by: Jennifer | January 03, 2012 at 02:39 PM
A family member of ours (one who should know better) was OUTRAGED on Christmas Eve that the Iraqis are so unappreciative of our efforts.
Wow...
Posted by: Jennifer | January 03, 2012 at 02:39 PM
I think the reason war crimes get committed is because no one who commits them ever thinks they are committing a war crime.
Probably true. You get going in whatever it is your doing and everyone else is doing it and all of a sudden it's "normal".
Which reminds me of something (and it's kind of opposite to the idea above) I learned about war from reading a book on Vietnam when I was about 12, maybe? Whoever wrote the book said that killing someone in war is way worse than the fear that you might be killed. That was a *huge* idea to me when I read it.
Posted by: blue girl | January 03, 2012 at 02:48 PM
LOL @ Kathleen! BLOG TRAUMA!
Posted by: blue girl | January 03, 2012 at 02:49 PM
Drone war is like video game war to me, and I assume (somewhat) the person pressing the buttons.
Probably not video game war to whoever gets bombed, though.
Posted by: blue girl | January 03, 2012 at 02:50 PM
Please excuse my whoevers if they're supposed to be whomevers. I can never remember that rule.
Posted by: blue girl | January 03, 2012 at 02:52 PM
It's whomever, when whomever is the indirect object... :) Since ZRM's not here, I figured I'd step in.
Drone war is like video game war to me, and I assume (somewhat) the person pressing the buttons.
Yeah, and it's a shame. I think people should not be removed from what they're doing.
Posted by: Jennifer | January 03, 2012 at 02:55 PM
It's whomever, when whomever is the indirect object
Thank you! Hopefully I'll be able to remember that. If not, please excuse.
Here's an interesting little thing I learned long ago. It's a quote by Lyndon Johnson, and I'm paraphrasing here:
"The Vietnamese are so patient, they'd sit in a tree for a week at a time if that's what they needed to do. American boys? They need a cigarette, and they're down out of that tree in 5 minutes."
Not really making a point. Just something that's always stuck with me.
Posted by: blue girl | January 03, 2012 at 03:02 PM
It's one of the few rules I remember so I'm sticking to it!!! :)
I'd say our impatience has only grown... Now! Now! Now!! Bigger! Better! Now!!
Posted by: Jennifer | January 03, 2012 at 03:04 PM
yes mine was a selfish blog change comment, not up to the serious of the subject matter. It is too depressing for me to think about.
Sorry I know I should comment so you know I read the blog post.
Posted by: Kathleen | January 03, 2012 at 03:08 PM
No need to comment about it. I could barely put up the post, but was so hit with the childhood memory of 40-some years ago... if a kid who is under ten, is trying to make sense of war, wouldn't you want to assume adults are? And that hopefully they'd come to the conclusion that no war is good??
I realize people need to defend themselves... I realize sometimes drastic measures must be taken to stop evil, but... I just keep thinking we'll evolve past this very antiquated notion that this is OK, and by we, I mean EVERYONE. Instead our weapons evolve.
Posted by: Jennifer | January 03, 2012 at 03:12 PM
Sorry I know I should comment so you know I read the blog post.
Yes, please... in the future, leave a comment that shows you've read the post and that either I, or my readers, might like to read... :)
Posted by: Jennifer | January 03, 2012 at 03:13 PM
Since ZRM's not here
As far as you know.
I think the reason war crimes get committed is because no one who commits them ever thinks they are committing a war crime.
I think Cheney, Rumsfeld, and even Bush knew EXACTLY what they were doing. They bent over backwards, before AND after, to fill the air with justifications and weaseling. They had John Yoo fabricate legal rationalizations, and made sure that Congress inoculated them with the AUMF; the Patriot Act was filled with enough gray areas to drive a truckload of Orwell's 1984 through. And even Bush was smart enough to cancel his trip overseas, knowing he could be arrested.
They knew EXACTLY how far over the established lines they were going.
In this case, war crimes were committed because they convinced themselves they would pay no price for committing them; and opposition to the crimes themselves could be used as a political cudgel.
And I think Cheney gets off on hurting people.
[this is kind of a harsh political comment, Jennifer. Pull it if you think it's too far. You can tell how seriously I take it because there's no foul language.]
Posted by: zombie rotten mcdonald | January 03, 2012 at 03:23 PM
IT IS CRAZY OVER HERE WHAT IS GOING ON SOMEONE HOLD ME
That is actually a pretty good comment on the post, and America in general.
Posted by: zombie rotten mcdonald | January 03, 2012 at 03:24 PM
Oh, I agree... with both comments.
Posted by: Jennifer | January 03, 2012 at 03:27 PM
IT IS CRAZY OVER HERE WHAT IS GOING ON SOMEONE HOLD ME
That is actually a pretty good comment on the post, and America in general.
I totally agree~!!
Posted by: blue girl | January 03, 2012 at 03:34 PM
I agree with your serious, non-profane comment above, Zombie. There's a diff between those who manipulate the system and know what they're doing and why they're doing it -- and the cogs who get all caught up in it, don't you think?
It's the old, "I was just following orders" sitch.
Posted by: blue girl | January 03, 2012 at 03:36 PM
Yes, there is a difference, BG, but if you'll recall, there is a point where "following orders" was not seen as a wholesale defense in Nuremburg.
Part of military training serves to, I think, erode that little portion of the mind where a soldier says "wait now...."
But the whole chain of command should not be able to avail themselves of the following orders defense. The command are the ones who CREATE the orders....
Posted by: zombie rotten mcdonald | January 03, 2012 at 03:46 PM
Yes, please... in the future, leave a comment that shows you've read the post and that either I, or my readers, might like to read... :)
I need to save that piece of text to a notepad, so I can throw it into a comment thread at a moment's notice....
Posted by: zombie rotten mcdonald | January 03, 2012 at 03:49 PM
Part of military training serves to, I think, erode that little portion of the mind where a soldier says "wait now...."
Same could be said of parochial school or parents of a certain generation... I'll leave out political parties. :)
Posted by: Jennifer | January 03, 2012 at 03:49 PM
So?
WAS Frankenstein buried under that slab?
You are leaving us all in suspense!
Posted by: zombie rotten mcdonald | January 03, 2012 at 04:14 PM
The slab is STILL there!! And I'm pretty sure he is. No one had actually moved the slab to check though...
These woods backed up to a cemetery so the slab could have very easily come from a vault. One side of these woods also abutted a swamp. We often went to the swamp to score teeny frogs and snails, but you had to go close to the back of that cemetery!!! I don't remember how Frankenstein came into play. It was easy to make the leap to "burial plot" since we were so close to real ones, but I suppose my friends and I all watched enough Creature Features that Frankenstein was the obvious choice!
Posted by: Jennifer | January 03, 2012 at 04:22 PM
We know waterboarding is torture, and pre 9-11, I'll bet most of the people who authorized it would have agreed. But then something BIG happened and then we justified what was previously a crime as a necessity because LIVES COULD BE AT STAKE!
There's a huge mental justification process that most people have to go through to kill or maim others. You dehumanize the enemy, you claim reasons of religion, ethnicity, or nationality, you say you were following orders...even those who probably know they would be found guilty of war crimes feel they are committing the acts for some worthwhile cause. This is partly why Vietnam became so unpalatable -- it was about body counts rather than claiming territory or freedom or a lot of the other justifications that us swallow the killing of other humans.
Posted by: Brando | January 03, 2012 at 05:03 PM
I watched this several part PBS documentary last month called Auschwitz: Inside the Nazi State. At the end of each segment, Linda Ellerbee would have two scholars on to discuss the specific topic of the segment shown. One was the percentage of the "regular" German people who helped the Jews. It was less than 1%. She asked them, "How do we raise our children to be a part of that 1%?"
That was amazing to me. Both that just less than 1% of the people went against authority and actually tried to help and then to think about what it means to raise kids who would be a part of that 1%. Not just *say* they would, but that they actually *would." HUGE stuff.
You can use Nazi Germany to try to learn everything there is to learn about all of humanity.
Posted by: blue girl | January 03, 2012 at 05:52 PM
there is a point where "following orders" was not seen as a wholesale defense in Nuremburg.
Don't know everything there is to know about this. But it did bring to mind the idea that if some who were seen to have been just following orders were also great scientists or great businessmen, the West forgave *a lot.*
Posted by: blue girl | January 03, 2012 at 05:56 PM
neither do I, beege, but weren't the Nuremburg trials pretty much for the military and political leaders?
I know that a lot of scientists were kind of spirited into America at the end.
Posted by: zombie rotten mcdonald | January 03, 2012 at 06:17 PM
Yeah, and Hans Fritzsche, a "Popular radio commentator; head of the news division of the Nazi Propaganda Ministry. Tried in place of Joseph Goebbels."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Trials
Interesting how *some* people might've learned that being a "popular radio commentator" might gain ya a little power!
Ok, now I'm gonna have to read all about the Nuremberg Trials.
Posted by: blue girl | January 03, 2012 at 06:33 PM
Forgot to mention the "popular radio commentator" was acquitted. Figures.
Just got done reading about the trials again. Gruesome stuff.
Posted by: blue girl | January 03, 2012 at 06:46 PM
so, is the place for a riddle:
What's the difference between Rush Limbaugh and the Hindenburg?
Posted by: zombie rotten mcdonald | January 03, 2012 at 07:03 PM
Hmmm... Both are gasbags... Let's see, one's a dirigible and the other's a blimp.
Posted by: Jennifer | January 03, 2012 at 07:12 PM
One's a flaming Nazi gasbag. The other is an airship.
Posted by: zombie rotten mcdonald | January 03, 2012 at 07:13 PM
Hahahahaahaaa
Posted by: Jennifer | January 03, 2012 at 07:17 PM
President Santorum!
Posted by: blue girl | January 03, 2012 at 09:28 PM
:0
Posted by: Jennifer | January 03, 2012 at 09:37 PM
You know that pregnancy you were bwhahahahahing before?
President Santorum would is for it! Actually, he insists on it.
Posted by: blue girl | January 03, 2012 at 09:49 PM
LOL at the Rush joke.
Also, I have become minorly obsessed with thinking about the holocaust now that I have a house and a child. Standing up seemed so easy a choice when I was younger.
Posted by: Kathleen | January 03, 2012 at 11:18 PM
I need to save that piece of text to a notepad, so I can throw it into a comment thread at a moment's notice....
I had one of those...you inspired me to open it. it had this on it:
I don't really know what they mean.
Posted by: Kathleen | January 03, 2012 at 11:20 PM
Mitt Romney's really a stiff, if he can't even beat Rick Santorum, even in Iowa.
____ like an owl
Isn't that a lyric from that Nine Inch Nails song?
LOL at the Rush joke.
...and then I went back through the comments, looking for the place I mentioned 2112 or The Trees... I'm very tired
Posted by: zombie rotten mcdonald | January 04, 2012 at 12:15 AM
Standing up seemed so easy a choice when I was younger.
I am definitely going to find a place for that lyric in our punk band.
Posted by: zombie rotten mcdonald | January 04, 2012 at 12:52 AM
I was at Disneyland when you were dividing up band roles. I want to be the band manager. the really shitty one that steals all the drinks and always messes up the reservations.
Posted by: Kathleen | January 04, 2012 at 01:33 PM
also relevant
Posted by: Kathleen | January 04, 2012 at 01:58 PM
the really shitty one that steals all the drinks and always messes up the reservations.
Nope. The first band manager has to be in a relationship with one of the band members. It's the rules.
Posted by: zombie rotten mcdonald | January 04, 2012 at 02:42 PM